
George Saunders on Anger, Ambition and Sin
Descripción del Episodio
George Saunders is tired of being the “kindness guy.”
Saunders is one of my favorite fiction writers, and a friend of the pod; I talked to him back in 2021 and 2022. He also has a reputation as a kind of guru of kindness, thanks to a viral commencement speech he gave back in 2013. We talked about kindness on the show before.
But with the publication of his new novel, “Vigil,” I noticed that something about Saunders seemed to have shifted. He was pushing back against that public persona, and wrestling with darker themes.
“Vigil” follows an oil tycoon who, on his deathbed, is visited by angels and people from his past asking him to reassess his life. And you can feel a tension in that book that is also very alive in Saunders himself — between recognizing how much of our lives are conditioned by our circumstances and the need to pass judgment to reckon with the truth.
In this conversation, I discuss that tension with Saunders. I ask him about his relationship not just to kindness but also to anger; how he defines sin; whether he believes in free will; and what he thinks lies beyond kindness.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Vigil by George Saunders
“What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World” by The Ezra Klein Show
“George Saunders Convocation Speech 2013”
“A Tough Question Indeed” by George Saunders
East West Street by Philippe Sands
“When Is It Genocide?” by The Ezra Klein Show
Book Recommendations:
I Will Bear Witness, Volume 1 by Victor Klemperer
Red Cavalry and Other Stories by Isaac Babel
The Place of Tides by James Rebanks
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota, Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Episodios Recientes

Más podcasts de Sociedad y Cultura
Ver toda la categoría →
The Last 12 Weeks
By shows
In 1992, David Wood was convicted of murdering young women and girls and burying them in the desert outside El Paso, earning him the nickname the Desert Killer. More than 30 years later, his lawyers have one last chance to argue his innocence and stop his execution. “The Last 12 Weeks” follows a team of capital defense lawyers as they try to save their client’s life. The series, produced by Serial Productions and The New York Times in collaboration with The Marshall Project, focuses on the high stakes and at times bizarre work involved in trying to halt an execution. With an extraordinary level of access to a capital case in its final stretch, the longtime death penalty reporter Maurice Chammah takes listeners into the room with the lawyers as the clock ticks down. Maurice and Alvin Melathe, a producer, follow members of the defense team as they look for alternate suspects, try to find new evidence to poke holes in the case, and track down hard-to-find witnesses. In the end, will the lawyers’ efforts be enough to persuade a deeply skeptical court system — and stop an execution three decades in the making? “The Last 12 Weeks.” A five-part series … on a deadline.

Rotten Mango
By shows
Rotten but still a little sweet! Rotten Mango is a true crime + all things spooky podcast. We love doing deep dives into the darkest crimes and we tend to not leave out any details - which can get a little rotten at times. If you want deep dives in the psychology of killers, no holding back storytelling of crimes, and stories of lesser known criminals from around the world this is the place for you. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Rotten Mango ad-free. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Palabras Mayores - Carlos Antonio Vélez
By shows
Hablamos de lo que más nos gusta; el fútbol. No somos hinchas de nadie, tampoco hacemos parte de las relaciones publicas de un club, de una selección, de algún dirigente, de algún técnico o de algunos jugadores.

Passion Struck with John R. Miles
By shows
You built the life you were supposed to want. So why doesn't it feel like enough?<br /><br />Passion Struck with John R. Miles is the #1 alternative health podcast exploring the deepest questions of human well-being — how we think, how we feel, how we connect, and how we build lives that don't quietly hollow us out from the inside. Hosted by bestselling author, Navy veteran, and former Fortune 50 executive John R. Miles, this is the show for anyone who wants to understand themselves more deeply and live more fully.<br /><br />Every week, John sits down with the world's leading voices across neuroscience, psychology, medicine, philosophy, sports, business, and the arts — guests like Seth Godin, Ryan Holiday, Susan Cain, Mark Hyman, Angela Duckworth, and Arthur Brooks. Together, they explore what it actually takes to build a life that feels like yours—how to strengthen your mind and body, build relationships that sustain you, find purpose before you’ve lost it or reclaim it after you have, and break free from stress, numbness, and the quiet drift of going through the motions.<br /><br />Whether you're 26 and trying to build your life the right way from the start, or 43 and wondering why the life you built doesn't feel like yours, this show meets you exactly where you are. Because the questions you're carrying deserve real answers.<br /><br />New episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.<br /><br />85 Million Downloads | Gold Stevie Award | Davey Gold for Social Impact

Dumb Blonde
By shows
<p>Asking the questions others are afraid to. Bunnie XO host of the Dumb Blonde podcast – the ultimate destination for comedy, trending and lifestyle. Get ready to dive into hilarious discussions about relationships, trauma, embarrassing moments, and all the realness life throws at us. Join Bunnie every week to laugh, relate, and embrace your inner healing.</p>

The Snare
By shows
In 1996, 18-year-old Angie Dodge is found brutally murdered in her Idaho Falls home. Police zero in on a suspect and put a man behind bars. But as the years pass, doubts emerge about whether the real killer was ever caught. Leading the fight for answers is an unlikely advocate: Angie’s own mother, who embarks on a decades-long mission to uncover the truth. A six-part series from 20/20 and ABC Audio, hosted by Maggie Rulli. New episodes Tuesdays.

Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb
By shows
<p>Joy is essential.</p> <p>And it's also elusive. You can't order it, borrow it, or simply hope it into life.</p> <p>But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence: The Joy 101 Podcast with Hoda!</p> <p>Best known for her Emmy-winning work and co-anchoring <em>Today,</em> Hoda Kotb infuses her authenticity, curiosity, and warmth into conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sport icons, wellness experts, and everyday folks will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. Hoda will offer her own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced, harmonious life. </p> <p>If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune in to these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats.</p> <p>Joy after a breakup, joy as an empty-nester, joy after loss, joy as a caretaker — Hoda's new podcast will speak to you.</p> <p>Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb, an iHeartPodcast.</p>
